Royalties? Copyrights? Ahhhhgh!

DeadLogic · Post by **DeadLogic** » Tue Sep 23, 2003 12:51 am

WHats all this talk about not being able to use copyrighted music and such in a movie? I want to use music from a videogame, and my movie will not be sold or used to make a profit, so is using the music Ok?

U.S.Amateurfilmaker · Tue Sep 23, 2003 12:55 am

By music industry standars, probably no, but if you have the CD, its your song, so why not use it for your own purposes? Everything should be fine unless you go to sell it (which you already said you won't).

BrownCowStudios · Post by **BrownCowStudios** » Tue Sep 23, 2003 12:58 am

As long as you're not selling it or making a profit, it's perfectly alright to uise copywritten music. Just as a precaution, I would mention them in the credits. I always do anyway...

Carnage7p · Post by **Carnage7p** » Tue Sep 23, 2003 1:03 am

right a lot of people on this forum sell there movies or enter them into film festivals. in these cases you would need your own music or permission to use the music.

Raptor · Post by **Raptor** » Tue Sep 23, 2003 4:36 am

Originally posted by U.S.Amateurfilmaker
By music industry standars, probably no, but if you have the CD, its your song, so why not use it for your own purposes? Everything should be fine unless you go to sell it (which you already said you won't).

No, it's not OK to use it legally without a synchronization license, whether you are selling it or otherwise. When you but a CD you only have the right to listen to it, and to media shift the song.. ie to a \n audio tape or digital audio file. When you combine it with a video you are using it to create a new work. This is not covered under fair use madia shift rights, but is considered a derivative work, and therefore requires a separatwe license for use of the music.

Raptor · Post by **Raptor** » Tue Sep 23, 2003 4:43 am

Originally posted by BrownCowStudios
As long as you're not selling it or making a profit, it's perfectly alright to uise copywritten music. Just as a precaution, I would mention them in the credits. I always do anyway...

As an additional thought on this, selling or making aprofit has nothing to do with the law. You are distributing the file, even if it is available for download on the net, that is considered distribution. The difference in the law when it comes to profits, is not only are you liable for the fine ( up to $150,000 per infringement in the US ), you are also liable to the artist for their lost profits ( cost of the loss for everyone who has DL'd your file or who has a copy of it ) , but if you made a profit, they cana lso go after the profit you made. That is the only way sales and profits figure into it. Of all the people who have gotten burned in file sharing music recently how many of them were selling the music??? But a couple of college students got hit for $13,000 to $17,000 dollars. It has nothing to do with selling a film containing the copyrighted work, it is USING the copyrighted work that is illegal.....

Grant · Post by **Grant** » Tue Sep 23, 2003 2:35 pm

Yeah if it is just for yourself and friends. Or if you are entering small festivals I would not worry about royalties personally

foxwood · Post by **foxwood** » Tue Sep 23, 2003 4:12 pm

With the way the RIAA is acting i would be leary but if your just give it to friends the chance of them finding out is slim to none. Yes its not perfectly leagale but I say fu*k um. I own all the CDs I get sound from, and if they want to sue me for useing it in a home movie then bring it on b**ch! I'll take them on.

Lee · Post by **Lee** » Tue Sep 23, 2003 7:02 pm

Originally posted by foxwood
With the way the RIAA is acting i would be leary but if your just give it to friends the chance of them finding out is slim to none. Yes its not perfectly leagale but I say fu*k um. I own all the CDs I get sound from, and if they want to sue me for useing it in a home movie then bring it on b**ch! I'll take them on.

You tell 'em, foxwood!

TommyPollock · Post by **TommyPollock** » Tue Sep 23, 2003 8:58 pm

I don't see the risk in using copyrighted material if all your going to do is show it to Great Aunt Helga and Uncle Bob.

However, if you have a relative who values putting 'arresting his nephew for a petty little crime' on his CV higher then his whole entire family, then maybe its not a good move.

DeadLogic · Post by **DeadLogic** » Tue Sep 23, 2003 9:10 pm

Ok, Raptor is making me scared...

Seriously though, I'm not gonna distribute it, or even put it on the web (Although I know you'd all love it), I just am gonna give a few copies to my friends and family, if i actually FEEL like it. I am so lazy, i might just pass one copy around.

Anyway, think about it. There are those caring mommies and daddies who make tapes of their kids, and they put music in them. There are tons of really ameteur people out there that make movies with Windows Movie Maker and stick in songs. I dont see how I could be more guilty, and anyway, I dont think that this movie I'm making is gonna go anywhere beyond my small town. If it does, THEN i'll write the composer for permission to use the song.

U.S.Amateurfilmaker · Post by **U.S.Amateurfilmaker** » Tue Sep 23, 2003 9:37 pm

The RIAA is a load of cr**. You're telling me that when I put music in a wedding video that I make for somecody, I have to buy some bajillion dollar license from the record company? What the hell?!!!

Then how do other video agencies do it without running themselves bankrupt?

What about home movies? The record companies actually consider it illegal to put CD music on a home movie? So what, Mommy has to get a license to put a song on little timmy's 1st birthday video? And while she's at it, why doesn't she just compose some home made soundtracks with some personally synthasized loops music that doesn't break copyright laws. Gime a break!!!!

Its my music, why don't I have the right to use it?

[Edited on 23-9-2003 by U.S.Amateurfilmaker]

El Brenty · Post by **El Brenty** » Tue Sep 23, 2003 9:44 pm

You can find a load of legal blurb HERE for copyright information, licenses and stuff like that!

Personally, I agree with US Amateurfilmaker! If I have my own CD that I bought, I should be entitled to use the music personally as I see fit. If I were to share it with friends, but not dish copies out to them, I'd expect to be within the law as well, however if I used it, and then sold it in a different form, I could appreciate getting a license, if there's profit in it!

DeadLogic · Post by **DeadLogic** » Tue Sep 23, 2003 9:44 pm

Damn Straight!

Uh, does the recording industry actually lose that much money anyway? Stuff like Kazza is convenient! If the RIAA has an issue, they should compete and make a user-based music-sharing program! Everyone would love them, and they could have all the music files ANYONE would want, and they could charge a price!

U.S.Amateurfilmaker · Tue Sep 23, 2003 10:28 pm

how much to music licenses cost anyway?

foxwood · Post by **foxwood** » Wed Sep 24, 2003 12:13 am

To damn much.

If we want to get technical about copywrite, then its iligal to hum a song, sing it around a camp fire, hell its illigal to sing happy birthday at your party.

The RIAA is full of s***, haven't they heard of fare use, if I sell my movie with there stuff and didn't pay then they can come after me but other wise f*** them!

Raptor · Post by **Raptor** » Wed Sep 24, 2003 5:30 pm

Originally posted by U.S.Amateurfilmaker
The RIAA is a load of cr**. You're telling me that when I put music in a wedding video that I make for somecody, I have to buy some bajillion dollar license from the record company? What the hell?!!! Then how do other video agencies do it without running themselves bankrupt?

What about home movies? The record companies actually consider it illegal to put CD music on a home movie? So what, Mommy has to get a license to put a song on little timmy's 1st birthday video? And while she's at it, why doesn't she just compose some home made soundtracks with some personally synthasized loops music that doesn't break copyright laws. Gime a break!!!!

Its my music, why don't I have the right to use it?

It's not your music, you bought the media and a license to listen to the music. That would be like someone assembling clips of several movies, editing them together and with some stock video and using it. If you are making a single copy movie for PERSONAL use, that is fine. If you give a copy of that film to anyone, technically it is illegal. If it is viewable by the public, ie. festival, web etc, then it is considered distributed. Kazaa is convenient, no doubt, and an easy way to get music. Walking into a bank with a gun is an easy way to get money, but that doesn't make it legal. Does the music industry lose money to file sharing... no doubt! Do you know anyone who has a computer with internet access and doesn't have at least a few pirated songs?? I don't think I do

The bottom line is, if you use copyrighted material without the proper licensing, someone can pursue the matter. Creative professionals, whether they be writers, musicians, photographers, film makers etc have a right to protect their interest in the material they create. It is how they make their living. When dealing with video for distribution, I work through a company which provides video to Networks. One of the things they do for me is negotiate the licensing and price, and then monitor the use of that video to ensure it stays within the licensing specs. If I license video to a production company at say $20.00 per second for use in a specific episode or documentary, does that give them the right to use it in a second production without paying me again? Nope, even tho they already paid for it once. They did not buy the video, only the right to use within the licensing. That's the same as buying a CD. You don't own the music. Will RIAA come hunting for you? Maybe, maybe not. Will they win if they do? ALmost definitely. I have wathced too many times on some of the newsgroups I subscribe to where photogs have gone after completely non-profit sites for using an image without permission. Knowing most of these guys, a simple email would have gotten permission to use it, but just to have someone grab it from the proper website, or even link directly to the image without linking to the whole page without permission is an issue.
Am I adamant about copyright protection? Yepper, as a creative professional I want to be able to protect my work, and because of that I should ALSO respect the rights of OTHER creative professionals to protect their work.
And if you are doing a wedding video for sale or distribution, then yes, you do need to license any music you use in the video. The best thing is to purchase some royalty free music and use that in your productions. Make sure however you file and maintain any licensing paperwork you get with ANY stock video or music that you purchase, just in case down the road you ever have to prove that you have the proper license for it. Also do NOT confuse royalty free with free. Royalty free says you can use the material multiple times with only one licensing fee. The licensing on all royalty free material will probably in some way prohibit distributing the material to ther individuals directly. In other words, I can't purchase the royalty free material, say music on CD, then burn a copy to give to you for use in your production.

DO what you wish on your own flicks, I'm just trying to pass on what I have gleaned in the last 15 years of looking closely at copyright and what is and isn't infringing use. But understand one thing, the RIAA is unforgiving, and is out to make examples of as many people as they can right now. Ask the old guy in Texas whose grand kids downloaded some music to his computer using P2P software. He had no idea it was there, and actually had no idea how to use P2P, but guess who is going to pay the fines.... something better than $10,000.....

foxwood · Post by **foxwood** » Wed Sep 24, 2003 8:34 pm

Raptor you are eather the RIAA's biggist suporter or just really scared. If you think about it everything but playing the CD so that only you can hear it is illigal. Its illigal to play it loudly so that others can hear, from a copywrite stand point not a noise violation, its illigal to hum a song, to sing say happy birthday, and to even sing in the shower. You can inforce copywrite to a limet that is crazy and a liment that is fair.

U.S.Amateurfilmaker · Post by **U.S.Amateurfilmaker** » Wed Sep 24, 2003 9:05 pm

But what if I want to show my video to an audience? does that mean I should have to compose my own music? Does a news agency violate copyright laws when the play a video of a scene that has copyrighted music playing in the background? Obviously not. So why do I have to get a license to use my music on a video I'm going to give to some people?

Also, somebody tell me how a video producer (ie. weddings, graduations, etc) gets to use popular songs on the videos they make (and sell) and yet doesn't have to have a license? And don't tell me they do because theye is NO WAY a small production company can afford licensing for all the songs they use! I dare Raptor to answer this one

Raptor · Post by **Raptor** » Wed Sep 24, 2003 9:27 pm

Originally posted by foxwood
Raptor you are eather the RIAA's biggist suporter or just really scared. If you think about it everything but playing the CD so that only you can hear it is illigal. Its illigal to play it loudly so that others can hear, from a copywrite stand point not a noise violation, its illigal to hum a song, to sing say happy birthday, and to even sing in the shower. You can inforce copywrite to a limet that is crazy and a liment that is fair.

No it's not, it is OK to play it at a party, not in a bar, the diff is in a bar it is a public performance. You can play it at a party, but can't give away copies at a party. I am definitely not a supporter of the RIAA, at least not in their tactics. I do support their right to defend their copyright, or at least the copyright of their members. It is legal to hum a song, music licensing is one of the most complex types of media licensing since there are so many variations of HOW the music can be used. For example, some Karaoke discs come prelicensed. When you buy the disc, the manufacturer has already paid the appropriate license fees to the appropriate people whether BMI, ASCAP or whoever handles licensing for a specific label/artist. Vands who do cover songs, technically should be paying in one form or another for performance rights to do music, again usually covered in a bulk agreement, not by individual titles. Does it happen that way... probably not most times, but it IS the legal way to do it.
Again, my point of view is if I expect to be able to defend the copyright on my own creative work, then I should extend the same consideration to the Intelectual Property of others.
A lot of the video I shoot is severe weather related. The last thing I would appreciate is seeing some tornado video I shot that was say licensed for a documentary, end up clipped into a bands music video on MTV. That would probably upset me. As far as how far you can enforce copyright protection, that is defined by the laws. The RIAA and MPAA do not create the limits of what is legal, that is defined by statute. OK so maybe with the bucks they pour into PACs their input carries a bit more weight than you and I. Do I think current copyright protection is too tight? Personally yes I do. The DMCA is a case of bad law, unfortunately it is the law until it is changed. Whether or not I personally agree is really irrelevant, I just think it's important for everyone to understand the possible implications of use. We can all individually choose how we will make use of that information. I'm not EVEN going to try to tell you that everything I have ever done is completely free copyright violations

Just understand that if the RIAA comes looking for you, they accept no excuses. And they have much deeper pockets than I do to try to fight their case.
The law and the RIAA don't care what our persoanl thoughts are, they have a job to do as mandated by their members.
Here's an interesting article to show the extremes the RIAA will go to, the interesting thing being my wife is the system admin in the physics department at Penn State, so she got a firsthand look at this whole thing develop... and it was a cluster.

http://news.com.com/2100-1025_3-1001095.html

I just want everyone to be aware, before you use copyrighted material in violation of the licensing, what is and is not a legal use. What you do with it is entirely up to you, but understand that the owners of the copyright or their agents are well within their rights to pursue legal action, and it doesn't matter whether you make a cent from your project. Like I said, right now they are looking to make examples, and I sure as hell don't want to be one of them..

Raptor · Post by **Raptor** » Wed Sep 24, 2003 10:13 pm

Originally posted by U.S.Amateurfilmaker
But what if I want to show my video to an audience? does that mean I should have to compose my own music? Does a news agency violate copyright laws when the play a video of a scene that has copyrighted music playing in the background? Obviously not. So why do I have to get a license to use my music on a video I'm going to give to some people?

Also, somebody tell me how a video producer (ie. weddings, graduations, etc) gets to use popular songs on the videos they make (and sell) and yet doesn't have to have a license? And don't tell me they do because theye is NO WAY a small production company can afford licensing for all the songs they use! I dare Raptor to answer this one

News is handled differently. If the music is ambient sound, occuring at the scene, then no there is no license required. If I assemble a package for the news, for example a 1:30 package about tourism in Alabama and want to overlay 15 seconds of "Sweet Home Alabama". then yes I do nees a license. By the same token, if I am shooting an accident scens at an intersection, and you walk into camera, your face can end up on the news, whether you like it or not, without a model release. If I am shooting anything that is not 'news' then I damned well better have a signed model release, or you will have a good case.

As far as wedding videos, yes, legally the production house must have a license for any copyrighted music they use. That license is generally payable thru BMI, ASCAP etc, and is probably on a per use basis and relatively inexpensive. But hey, If I'm selling you a $1200 weeding package, I can probably bury 20 - 30 dollars worth of licensing fees. If you are just doing a flick to drag out to show family or friends, then using copyrighted material is probably not an issue. If you paot it to a web site, then you are crossing the line. Or if you submit it to a festival. Check out the rules for say the 48 hour film festival. They require model releases, as well as verification of proper licensing or ownership for any music or audio tracks used.

I just want to make clear, for one off licensing say for weeding videos, license fees are a relatively small part of the cost the production house passes on to it's customers.

Check out the licensing at freeplaymusic.com here
http://freeplaymusic.com/terms_of_use.htm
They have a VERY liberal licensing requirement. For more details on how the license is interpretted check out their FAQ
I just want to make sure that everyone goes into use of music with their eyes wide open, and understand the legal implications of copyright law. It is incredibly complex, and sometimes seems contradictory, but remember, these guys lawyers make big bucks at it so THEY understand the law where you and I might see gray areas

Raptor · Post by **Raptor** » Wed Sep 24, 2003 11:51 pm

Here is an excellent article from a law firm on film rights to music. Notice there is a 'festival' licensing option... not sure how this would apply to licensing for a "one off" for a wedding video etc...
http://www.optimalegal.com/sys-tmpl/musicrights/

U.S.Amateurfilmaker · Post by **U.S.Amateurfilmaker** » Thu Sep 25, 2003 1:58 am

well, I guess that clears things up then. But I still think the RIAA is cr**