Not important but...

Axel.J.Rose · Post by **Axel.J.Rose** » Thu Jun 24, 2004 7:02 pm

Mat (stickmurder30) and myself are making a fake historical reconstitution of a shooting (the kind with guns) that happened in a restaurant during our trip to Chicago last month. My question is: since the whole movie is meant to be a comedy, would it be proper to use the song I Get Around, from the Beach Boys, as soundtrack during the shooting? We originally planned to use Corona from Minutemen (Jackass theme song), but yesterday I found this other song much funnier to use. What do you think?

monkey · Post by **monkey** » Thu Jun 24, 2004 7:09 pm

you should use a led zeppelin song called "hot dog"
i can email it to u if u want.

Grant · Post by **Grant** » Fri Jun 25, 2004 12:57 am

Would really have to see the film to judge a soundtrack option but i think the Beach Boys would suit fine as long as the film also followed the tempo

Axel.J.Rose · Post by **Axel.J.Rose** » Fri Jun 25, 2004 3:38 am

monkey wrote:you should use a led zeppelin song called "hot dog"
i can email it to u if u want.

I can't say for sure that we're gonna use it in this movie, but I promise myself I have to use it someday.

Themovieman44 · Post by **Themovieman44** » Fri Jun 25, 2004 3:48 am

Well if you plan to post your film here on the web you shouldn't use either of those songs. There is this thing called copyright laws.

For one: If someone felt like coming across your film who had the rights to the song they could sue you for breach of copyright.

For two: Honestly it looks unprofessional

It would be okay to use if you are just going to keep it at home, but like I said if you plan to post it on the web don't use them.

BrownCowStudios · Post by **BrownCowStudios** » Fri Jun 25, 2004 4:00 am

You can go ahead and post it on the web, as long as you're not making a profit from it. As movieman said though, it does sort of seem unprofessional.

bad_karma24 · Post by **bad_karma24** » Fri Jun 25, 2004 4:07 am

Well if you plan to post your film here on the web you shouldn't use either of those songs. There is this thing called copyright laws.

For one: If someone felt like coming across your film who had the rights to the song they could sue you for breach of copyright.

For two: Honestly it looks unprofessional

It would be okay to use if you are just going to keep it at home, but like I said if you plan to post it on the web don't use them.

What are you talking about? Do you have the first idea how copyright laws are made? As long as you don't make a profit, you can do whatever you damn well please with copyrighted material. If you would want to go ahead and get permission it would cost you quite a bit, much more than amateur filmmakers have. There's nothing unprofessional about it.

Themovieman44 · Post by **Themovieman44** » Fri Jun 25, 2004 4:11 am

Well it does show that you have no will to compose your own music or songs, or go after a composer. Granted a song might seem perfect, but come on.

Axel.J.Rose · Post by **Axel.J.Rose** » Fri Jun 25, 2004 4:23 am

It IS meant to be a non-profit flash movie, for our personnal use only. And, the whole movie is meant to funny and ironic. The use of such a song is meant to be a complete anti-climax to the shooting, all the while being a parody of action movies.

Raptor · Post by **Raptor** » Fri Jun 25, 2004 4:58 am

bad_karma24 wrote:
Well if you plan to post your film here on the web you shouldn't use either of those songs. There is this thing called copyright laws.

For one: If someone felt like coming across your film who had the rights to the song they could sue you for breach of copyright.

For two: Honestly it looks unprofessional

It would be okay to use if you are just going to keep it at home, but like I said if you plan to post it on the web don't use them.
What are you talking about? Do you have the first idea how copyright laws are made? As long as you don't make a profit, you can do whatever you damn well please with copyrighted material. If you would want to go ahead and get permission it would cost you quite a bit, much more than amateur filmmakers have. There's nothing unprofessional about it.

Obviously you have no idea how copyright works... it has absolutely NOTHING to do with making money, it has to do with use and display of the work. Even work created for educational use, which is explicitly granted in copyright laws, which uses copyrighted materials may not be posted to a public website. Copyright is intended to allow the creator of a work, to control how that work is used... in the same way you can control whether I can use your car or not. "I mean hey officer, sure I took that guys car, but I didn't make any money with it, I just drove it around for two days, and it only had a half a tank of gas when I got it and I brought it back full so he should be happy I did that for him"

Sounds kind of silly, but if you think about it, it's the same concept, you used someone elses property for your gain ( maybe not financial but there was something in it for you) without his permission.. then we justify it by saying we really added to the value for the guy we ripped off - when dealing with music video etc, we say we gave him free publicity...

The bottom line is, if you are making it for yourself, and you purchased the original it could POSSIBLY be a legitimate use by "fair use" under the American Home Recording Act. Synchronizing to video is or creating any derivative worek is not explicitly mentioned in the AHRA, it is what allows us to record a TV show and watch at a later date ( Time shifting) or to make a copy of a CD we purchased for archive, or to use in the car. The use in a video has never been tested in court, and even then the fair use doctrine is simply a defense to explain why you used the work. It does not prevent you from being sued. You still incur the expense to defend yourself, and even if you win, you would then have to sue to recover your legal fees.

The bottom line is legally.. unless you created it yourself, you need the creators ( or copyright holder's permission to use it for ANYTHING...
All the fair uses that are laid out ( Educational, Parody, Commentary etc have certain criteria that must be met to even be considered, and then, it is up to the judge to interpret how those fair uses relate to your defense.

Axel.J.Rose · Post by **Axel.J.Rose** » Fri Jun 25, 2004 5:19 am

It must be taken into account that both Mat and myself are Canadians, located of canadian soil under canadian rule, and canadian copyright laws are slightly different than the USA's. Besides, I seriously doubt the Beach Boys will sue 2 16 year olds that ripped their songs to make a flash movie. NewGrounds is filled with other folks like us. The odds are about 1 to a billion of getting sued. But, back to the subject, do you think that, as a parody, use of such type of songs is ok moviewise?

tallman_house_pictures · Fri Jun 25, 2004 5:34 am

Use that song that goes
"im gonna shoot u right now........right on the feet......take u home with me" although i do not no the title. lol

Raptor · Post by **Raptor** » Fri Jun 25, 2004 5:44 am

To truly be a parody of a song, it would have to be a song. And even tho in different countries the laws are different, International treaties provide that the protection level of the country in which the copyright was registered will be applied
From the Berne Treaty of 1971
Article 5
(1) Authors shall enjoy, in respect of works for which they are protected under this Convention, in countries of the Union other than the country of origin, the rights which their respective laws do now or may hereafter grant to their nationals, as well as the rights specially granted by this Convention.

(2) The enjoyment and the exercise of these rights shall not be subject to any formality; such enjoyment and such exercise shall be independent of the existence of protection in the country of origin of the work. Consequently, apart from the provisions of this Convention, the extent of protection, as well as the means of redress afforded to the author to protect his rights, shall be governed exclusively by the laws of the country where protection is claimed.

(3) Protection in the country of origin is governed by domestic law. However, when the author is not a national of the country of origin of the work for which he is protected under this Convention, he shall enjoy in that country the same rights as national authors.

So even tho you live in Canada, if the country of origin of the copyrighted piece is the US, then the protection of the US copyright laws are extended, and will be enforced in Canada. Providing both countries are signatory to the agreement.

Yes, you are right, the odds of getting sued are pretty high, but understand thaty in order to maintain their copyright protection, the copyright holders are required by law to dilligently pursue infringers in order to prevent their material from being declared in the public domain, and thus making their property virtually worthless.

It's this kind of stuff that makes the copyright laws so convoluted and tough to figure out.

Axel.J.Rose · Post by **Axel.J.Rose** » Fri Jun 25, 2004 5:59 am

By parody, I meant the context of the movie. And, if they haven't sued the f*** out the NG users, why would they start with us? But I appreciate your concern anyway.

Themovieman44 · Post by **Themovieman44** » Fri Jun 25, 2004 6:46 am

Thank you Raptor for clearly stating what I was just too lazy to do.

bad_karma24 · Post by **bad_karma24** » Fri Jun 25, 2004 9:05 am

Raptor, while that is true, we are talking about two guys making an amatuer film. If they are posting it on a forum such as this, there is nothing realistically illegal about that. I had uncopyrighted music in my movie too, it's not a huge deal. Technically, it is illegal, but this is the real world and that stuff does not happen unless people start selling it.

And having someone compose music for you often costs money, and if a song fits there's no reason why you can't put it in, especially if it's a lyrical song composed by someone famous.

Themovieman44 · Post by **Themovieman44** » Fri Jun 25, 2004 3:04 pm

bad_karma24 wrote:And having someone compose music for you often costs money, and if a song fits there's no reason why you can't put it in, especially if it's a lyrical song composed by someone famous.

This is quite wrong. I put out an ad on a few sites for a film me and BrownCowStudios are making, and well I got 42 composers willing to work for nothing more than mere publicity and experience. You just have to know where to look and not be lazy to do so.

bad_karma24 · Post by **bad_karma24** » Fri Jun 25, 2004 6:19 pm

So that means that all these movies that come out with no original music are also being "lazy?" Watch Forrest Gump and you'll see what I mean.

Raptor · Post by **Raptor** » Fri Jun 25, 2004 7:41 pm

bad_karma24 wrote:So that means that all these movies that come out with no original music are also being "lazy?" Watch Forrest Gump and you'll see what I mean.

And it's all licensed... I know what you mean about the probablity of being busted... but that's probably what all thos epeople who downloaded songs thought untill the RIAA dropped off a sumons at their door.
Every week on a couple of the storm chaser mailing lists I subscribe to, people are hunting down unauthorized uses of their images and video on web sites. Most times it's a simple cease and desist letter from an attorney, but some others will sue EVERY infringer for at least the cost of licensing the images or video. Why? Obviously if you selected a specific piece of copyrighted work it added some level of value to whatever you are doing. Value does not have to be monetary.. if it is the perfect piece of music for your movie, it makes your movie better, thereby increasing it's value. It obviously has value to you, you picked it. Now we say that since we make no money from this movie, we cost the copyright holder nothing. And this is where our logic fails. Their loss is in the licensing of the rights we would need to include that music in our piece - at a minimum synch and distribution. It could also include mechanical and performance depending on how it is used. Since we used their material, they have a right to payment. If I go to work, and we have a bad week, the company doesn't make any money, did my labor not present something of value to the comapny anyway and should I not get paid? Of course I should, as should the copyright holders of the music. They can and will sue you for the licensing fees at a minimum. That is the flaw in the logic, every time we use copyrighted material in a film without proper licensing, we deny the owner of that copyright the license fees to which they are entitled, and they have every right to come after you to collect those fees. Again, I see it at least once a week, sometimes more. Someone will post a site to one of the mailing lists and say they found some of their work on this site, orfound so and so's on this site.. and the guys who make a living ( or a good portion of their living) from sales and licensing of images and video are all over the offender, often times thru their lawyer.

bad_karma24 · Post by **bad_karma24** » Fri Jun 25, 2004 8:02 pm

They "could" sue you yes, it is a legal possibilty. But if money does not change hands, the probability of it is slim enough to make me not worry about it.

And to be honest, the majority of people out there do not seem to care all that much. Lucas is perfectly alright with people using the "Star Wars' universe, for example.

But if you still are worried about it, go to royalty-free music sites.

Themovieman44 · Post by **Themovieman44** » Sat Jun 26, 2004 9:03 pm

The point of the matter is about creditbility and professionalism.

Raptor · Post by **Raptor** » Sat Jun 26, 2004 10:18 pm

Themovieman44 wrote:The point of the matter is about creditbility and professionalism.

And respect for another artisits work well said MovieMan

justsomeguy · Post by **justsomeguy** » Sat Jun 26, 2004 10:49 pm

im lucky because my sister goes to some music college and she's all into that kinda stuff and so are her firends. hey raptor, arent you a teacher or something? do you give really long lectures?

Raptor · Post by **Raptor** » Sat Jun 26, 2004 11:21 pm

He he he he he I don't spend as much time teaching as I used to, in fact rarely get into the classroom much anymore.. too busy keeping the network and the PCs running.. but yeah, I've been known to do some pretty lengthy lectures LOL

bad_karma24 · Post by **bad_karma24** » Sun Jun 27, 2004 6:32 am

Yeah, you do seem pretty knowledgeable about... everything

. What do you teach?